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	<title>Comments on: Navel gazing</title>
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	<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/</link>
	<description>inde vides agilem bella gerentem</description>
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		<title>By: Clive</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1139</link>
		<dc:creator>Clive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jan 2010 22:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1139</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;There was a Tory chap there ... he said ... it wouldn&#039;t work ... because people wouldn&#039;t use their money to help others.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://wikileaks.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikileaks&lt;/a&gt; is desperately short of money right now. I feel morally obliged to give them something, but I can&#039;t promise I won&#039;t be cowed into passivity by the size of my own credit card debts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;There was a Tory chap there &#8230; he said &#8230; it wouldn&#8217;t work &#8230; because people wouldn&#8217;t use their money to help others.&#8221;</i></p>
<p><a href="http://wikileaks.org/" rel="nofollow">Wikileaks</a> is desperately short of money right now. I feel morally obliged to give them something, but I can&#8217;t promise I won&#8217;t be cowed into passivity by the size of my own credit card debts.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1118</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1118</guid>
		<description>On friendly societies- 100 years ago that&#039;s what we had- and they worked well. Don&#039;t be too hard on the allegedly Tory gentleman- I suspect that he was just getting silly talking up his case. In my experience the ones who most loudly express a desire to help the unfortunate are least useful in this regard- and vice versa.
In a sense most people I meet are libertarian- they want to run their own affairs and don&#039;t want to harm others, which is basically the philosophy- though I doubt one in a hundred have heard of the word, never mind the party. But many are so used to having to put up with stupid orders that they imagine this to be inevitable.
From what I can see the libertarian natural constituency is either self employed or working for a small business- and I would have thought that a leader who has worked with such and can certainly outswear them where needed would be an advantage- especially when he can also talk dead posh when that is needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On friendly societies- 100 years ago that&#8217;s what we had- and they worked well. Don&#8217;t be too hard on the allegedly Tory gentleman- I suspect that he was just getting silly talking up his case. In my experience the ones who most loudly express a desire to help the unfortunate are least useful in this regard- and vice versa.<br />
In a sense most people I meet are libertarian- they want to run their own affairs and don&#8217;t want to harm others, which is basically the philosophy- though I doubt one in a hundred have heard of the word, never mind the party. But many are so used to having to put up with stupid orders that they imagine this to be inevitable.<br />
From what I can see the libertarian natural constituency is either self employed or working for a small business- and I would have thought that a leader who has worked with such and can certainly outswear them where needed would be an advantage- especially when he can also talk dead posh when that is needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Current</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1065</link>
		<dc:creator>Current</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1065</guid>
		<description>Well, I understand your view on traditional vs game ideas about attraction.  I&#039;d point out it isn&#039;t very useful, but useful isn&#039;t something we&#039;re really discussing here.

However, it isn&#039;t generally vain to hope that people will change their views on institutions.  Because they may do that for self-interested reasons.  So, informing people of where there interest lies is very important.

You view of marriage is actually a good example of that.  You are skeptical of the older ideas about marriage, so am I.  I&#039;d argue that we are more realistic about it than those who pledge everlasting love.  You see it as something more flexible.

What&#039;s more, your personal interest leads you to use it in that way.  And because of many people doing that the institution changes and becomes more flexibly defined.  This is what I mean earlier by improvement of social institutions.

As Hayek says in &quot;The Constitution of Liberty&quot; humans are as much rule-following beings as they are rational beings.  There are many problems that most normal people can never be expected to handle with reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I understand your view on traditional vs game ideas about attraction.  I&#8217;d point out it isn&#8217;t very useful, but useful isn&#8217;t something we&#8217;re really discussing here.</p>
<p>However, it isn&#8217;t generally vain to hope that people will change their views on institutions.  Because they may do that for self-interested reasons.  So, informing people of where there interest lies is very important.</p>
<p>You view of marriage is actually a good example of that.  You are skeptical of the older ideas about marriage, so am I.  I&#8217;d argue that we are more realistic about it than those who pledge everlasting love.  You see it as something more flexible.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, your personal interest leads you to use it in that way.  And because of many people doing that the institution changes and becomes more flexibly defined.  This is what I mean earlier by improvement of social institutions.</p>
<p>As Hayek says in &#8220;The Constitution of Liberty&#8221; humans are as much rule-following beings as they are rational beings.  There are many problems that most normal people can never be expected to handle with reason.</p>
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		<title>By: bellagerens</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1062</link>
		<dc:creator>bellagerens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1062</guid>
		<description>But I haven&#039;t said anything of the sort! I think traditional ideas about attraction are more-or-less wrong. I just think Roissy&#039;s wrong too. One must adapt and react to individual circumstances, not approach the opposite sex with a one-size-fits-all mentality. Traditional ideas, and Roissy, advocate that sort of mentality. So does the state&#039;s involvement in social institutions like marriage. If it is vain to hope that humans will change how they behave towards each other, it is equally vain to hope that they will change their attitudes to social institutions. What will effect change to both is to treat each other as discrete persons rather than as more or less identical members of some sub-group.

Take, for example, the institution of marriage which you mention. Many people believe this is a holy sacrament wherein two people pledge love everlasting and sublimate their separate uniqueness to the unity of two-becoming-one. I have never held that view, and I knew I could never have been happy married to someone who did. Probability suggested that sooner or later I would encounter someone who shared my own view; therefore I never felt the need to discard my view or insist that other people discard theirs. In effect, it matters little what the social institutions are or are assumed to be; what matters is how individuals approach their own actions and decisions. If everyone approached their behaviour with a bit of common sense, there would be no need to impose social institutions or change upon them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But I haven&#8217;t said anything of the sort! I think traditional ideas about attraction are more-or-less wrong. I just think Roissy&#8217;s wrong too. One must adapt and react to individual circumstances, not approach the opposite sex with a one-size-fits-all mentality. Traditional ideas, and Roissy, advocate that sort of mentality. So does the state&#8217;s involvement in social institutions like marriage. If it is vain to hope that humans will change how they behave towards each other, it is equally vain to hope that they will change their attitudes to social institutions. What will effect change to both is to treat each other as discrete persons rather than as more or less identical members of some sub-group.</p>
<p>Take, for example, the institution of marriage which you mention. Many people believe this is a holy sacrament wherein two people pledge love everlasting and sublimate their separate uniqueness to the unity of two-becoming-one. I have never held that view, and I knew I could never have been happy married to someone who did. Probability suggested that sooner or later I would encounter someone who shared my own view; therefore I never felt the need to discard my view or insist that other people discard theirs. In effect, it matters little what the social institutions are or are assumed to be; what matters is how individuals approach their own actions and decisions. If everyone approached their behaviour with a bit of common sense, there would be no need to impose social institutions or change upon them.</p>
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		<title>By: Current</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1061</link>
		<dc:creator>Current</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1061</guid>
		<description>I think we&#039;ll have to agree to disagree about that.

Going back to what I said earlier about social institutions though, this is important.

Let&#039;s say, for the sake of argument, that you are right and traditional ideas about attraction are more-or-less right.  In that case little needs to change in that area of society.

However, if Roissy is right then things are different and attitudes need to change.  If that were to happen then attitudes to institutions, such as marriage, will change, as will those institutions.  And that is what can really change the world for the better.  Not just hoping that humans will change how they behave towards each other.

It&#039;s positively destructive to advocate that people believe in each other.  Rather they should have to earn each others trust.  The same is entirely true of the self.  You should start each day from the presumption that you are a &quot;pink robot&quot; (in Scott Adam&#039;s words) and so is everyone else, and attempt to make it untrue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we&#8217;ll have to agree to disagree about that.</p>
<p>Going back to what I said earlier about social institutions though, this is important.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say, for the sake of argument, that you are right and traditional ideas about attraction are more-or-less right.  In that case little needs to change in that area of society.</p>
<p>However, if Roissy is right then things are different and attitudes need to change.  If that were to happen then attitudes to institutions, such as marriage, will change, as will those institutions.  And that is what can really change the world for the better.  Not just hoping that humans will change how they behave towards each other.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s positively destructive to advocate that people believe in each other.  Rather they should have to earn each others trust.  The same is entirely true of the self.  You should start each day from the presumption that you are a &#8220;pink robot&#8221; (in Scott Adam&#8217;s words) and so is everyone else, and attempt to make it untrue.</p>
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		<title>By: bellagerens</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1060</link>
		<dc:creator>bellagerens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1060</guid>
		<description>Well, but this is all very silly. Yes, flirting requires some skill and awareness, but you don&#039;t have to be an &#039;alpha&#039; to enjoy a long-term relationship. You certainly needn&#039;t be manipulative and nasty. You just have to be pleasant, interesting, and be with the sort of woman who suits you. It&#039;s really not that complicated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, but this is all very silly. Yes, flirting requires some skill and awareness, but you don&#8217;t have to be an &#8216;alpha&#8217; to enjoy a long-term relationship. You certainly needn&#8217;t be manipulative and nasty. You just have to be pleasant, interesting, and be with the sort of woman who suits you. It&#8217;s really not that complicated.</p>
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		<title>By: Current</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1056</link>
		<dc:creator>Current</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1056</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s exactly the problem from a mans point of view.  If you want to get good a flirting then the act part is all that&#039;s necessary.  However, in any long run relationship it can&#039;t be an act.  That means you actually have to be an Alpha; you have to be manipulative and nasty.  If you read between the lines in Roissy&#039;s post that&#039;s the problem he&#039;s having at present.  He&#039;s clearly getting into a long-term relationship.

I&#039;m a beta, so I am, naturally, no good at this stuff.  That means I&#039;m probably destined for a life of short-term relationships or no relationships.  But, despite Roissy&#039;s obsession with sex I don&#039;t think this is much of a problem.  There are plenty of other enjoyable things to do in the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s exactly the problem from a mans point of view.  If you want to get good a flirting then the act part is all that&#8217;s necessary.  However, in any long run relationship it can&#8217;t be an act.  That means you actually have to be an Alpha; you have to be manipulative and nasty.  If you read between the lines in Roissy&#8217;s post that&#8217;s the problem he&#8217;s having at present.  He&#8217;s clearly getting into a long-term relationship.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a beta, so I am, naturally, no good at this stuff.  That means I&#8217;m probably destined for a life of short-term relationships or no relationships.  But, despite Roissy&#8217;s obsession with sex I don&#8217;t think this is much of a problem.  There are plenty of other enjoyable things to do in the world.</p>
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		<title>By: bellagerens</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1055</link>
		<dc:creator>bellagerens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1055</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s fair enough. I too am consequentialist, but not exclusively; I tend to think freedom is as much a moral good as a utilitarian good. When you get down to it, though, I&#039;m not fussed about why people value liberty, as long as they do!

And yes, Roissysphere simplifications can indeed be useful. If I were a man, though, I would exercise caution in putting them into practice, especially if I were not naturally flippant and manipulative. It&#039;s hard to keep up an act for any extended length of time, and although the gains might be good in the short term, I&#039;m not sure they outweigh the pitfalls in the long term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s fair enough. I too am consequentialist, but not exclusively; I tend to think freedom is as much a moral good as a utilitarian good. When you get down to it, though, I&#8217;m not fussed about why people value liberty, as long as they do!</p>
<p>And yes, Roissysphere simplifications can indeed be useful. If I were a man, though, I would exercise caution in putting them into practice, especially if I were not naturally flippant and manipulative. It&#8217;s hard to keep up an act for any extended length of time, and although the gains might be good in the short term, I&#8217;m not sure they outweigh the pitfalls in the long term.</p>
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		<title>By: Current</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1054</link>
		<dc:creator>Current</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1054</guid>
		<description>I think your criticism are all pretty valid.  Roissy does associate Alpha = Asshole too much.  The folks who he has got his ideas from Mystery and so on do that much less.

This is all a bit different if you&#039;re a man, as I am, and you see how well this sort of stuff works.

However I still think the groups that the Roissysphere discuss are useful simplifications.  As you point out in an older post it leads to quite Libertarian conclusions anyway.

As for the &quot;anti-individualism&quot;, I think it&#039;s very necessary.  Just as Libertarians often point out that humans are self-interested when dealing with economic analysis.

Any rigourous case for Libertarianism relies on it being the Utilitarian thing to do (for some broad definition of Utilitarianism).  I support Liberty only because I think it&#039;s long term social consequences are better than other course, I am a &quot;Consequentialist Libertarian&quot;.  I don&#039;t think Freedom has any cosmic significance meaning that it should be valued, it should be valued for what it can provide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your criticism are all pretty valid.  Roissy does associate Alpha = Asshole too much.  The folks who he has got his ideas from Mystery and so on do that much less.</p>
<p>This is all a bit different if you&#8217;re a man, as I am, and you see how well this sort of stuff works.</p>
<p>However I still think the groups that the Roissysphere discuss are useful simplifications.  As you point out in an older post it leads to quite Libertarian conclusions anyway.</p>
<p>As for the &#8220;anti-individualism&#8221;, I think it&#8217;s very necessary.  Just as Libertarians often point out that humans are self-interested when dealing with economic analysis.</p>
<p>Any rigourous case for Libertarianism relies on it being the Utilitarian thing to do (for some broad definition of Utilitarianism).  I support Liberty only because I think it&#8217;s long term social consequences are better than other course, I am a &#8220;Consequentialist Libertarian&#8221;.  I don&#8217;t think Freedom has any cosmic significance meaning that it should be valued, it should be valued for what it can provide.</p>
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		<title>By: bellagerens</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/12/03/navel-gazing/comment-page-1/#comment-1053</link>
		<dc:creator>bellagerens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=604#comment-1053</guid>
		<description>Hmm. I&#039;m not entirely convinced by this &#039;evo psych&#039; stuff. Just as our physical bodies (esp. immune systems) are quite different from pre-historic peoples&#039;, so too might our minds and genetic drivers be. We&#039;ve lived in &#039;post-historic&#039; times for 11,000 years now, after all. The Roissysphere has some good ideas about male and female perspectives on sex, but this isn&#039;t necessarily one of them. Women, by and large, seek as partners (of any kind) men who are not going to bore them to death or treat them as inferior beings. Whether a man is an Alpha male or a &#039;beta provider&#039; has very little to do with this in reality. Unfortunately, in Roissy&#039;s world, boring = beta and asshole = alpha, and his readers thus swing on a pendulum between supine tedium and aggressive fuck-wittery, hoping one or the other will net them pussy. This whole outlook is both self-absorbed and counter-productive, and reduces both men and women to stereotypical ciphers wherein men simply want plentiful sex from beautiful, eager-to-please women, and women want sex from alpha manipulators and provision from beta emo-slaves.

Maybe he&#039;s right and I&#039;m wrong; but it doesn&#039;t really matter, because each person is distinct in his or her needs and desires and should be treated as an individual. When you, or Roissy, or whoever, start tossing around this kind of group psychology, you perpetuate the very anti-individualism of which I&#039;m so suspicious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. I&#8217;m not entirely convinced by this &#8216;evo psych&#8217; stuff. Just as our physical bodies (esp. immune systems) are quite different from pre-historic peoples&#8217;, so too might our minds and genetic drivers be. We&#8217;ve lived in &#8216;post-historic&#8217; times for 11,000 years now, after all. The Roissysphere has some good ideas about male and female perspectives on sex, but this isn&#8217;t necessarily one of them. Women, by and large, seek as partners (of any kind) men who are not going to bore them to death or treat them as inferior beings. Whether a man is an Alpha male or a &#8216;beta provider&#8217; has very little to do with this in reality. Unfortunately, in Roissy&#8217;s world, boring = beta and asshole = alpha, and his readers thus swing on a pendulum between supine tedium and aggressive fuck-wittery, hoping one or the other will net them pussy. This whole outlook is both self-absorbed and counter-productive, and reduces both men and women to stereotypical ciphers wherein men simply want plentiful sex from beautiful, eager-to-please women, and women want sex from alpha manipulators and provision from beta emo-slaves.</p>
<p>Maybe he&#8217;s right and I&#8217;m wrong; but it doesn&#8217;t really matter, because each person is distinct in his or her needs and desires and should be treated as an individual. When you, or Roissy, or whoever, start tossing around this kind of group psychology, you perpetuate the very anti-individualism of which I&#8217;m so suspicious.</p>
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