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	<title>Comments on: That&#8217;s right, whip the libertarian</title>
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	<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/</link>
	<description>inde vides agilem bella gerentem</description>
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		<title>By: bellagerens</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-3111</link>
		<dc:creator>bellagerens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-3111</guid>
		<description>Well, clearly. That&#039;s me told, then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, clearly. That&#8217;s me told, then.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom J</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-3110</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Apr 2010 21:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-3110</guid>
		<description>&quot;A libertarian may say, are the poor victims of coercion, interference, or oppression? If so, it must stop – and then they may be able to provide themselves with food.&quot;

Well what if they can&#039;t? And even if they could, what if they&#039;re so weak from being starved and subjugated that once they are un-subjugated they still can&#039;t provide themselves with food?

Besides, taxation isn&#039;t as nasty as dying in the street from lack of food, so clearly it&#039;s better to tax people who make money to provide welfare for people who don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A libertarian may say, are the poor victims of coercion, interference, or oppression? If so, it must stop – and then they may be able to provide themselves with food.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well what if they can&#8217;t? And even if they could, what if they&#8217;re so weak from being starved and subjugated that once they are un-subjugated they still can&#8217;t provide themselves with food?</p>
<p>Besides, taxation isn&#8217;t as nasty as dying in the street from lack of food, so clearly it&#8217;s better to tax people who make money to provide welfare for people who don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Abhishek Saha</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-854</link>
		<dc:creator>Abhishek Saha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-854</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a very nice post. Non-libertarians often do not understand that freedom is actually a very well-defined term in libertarian parlance and does not in fact include the right to do whatever you want. And liberals (using the US meaning of the term) love to put together positive and negative liberty into one inconsistent mash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a very nice post. Non-libertarians often do not understand that freedom is actually a very well-defined term in libertarian parlance and does not in fact include the right to do whatever you want. And liberals (using the US meaning of the term) love to put together positive and negative liberty into one inconsistent mash.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-840</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-840</guid>
		<description>Are we free to go now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are we free to go now?</p>
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		<title>By: Jock</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-805</link>
		<dc:creator>Jock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:27:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-805</guid>
		<description>Neil: I don&#039;t believe that anarchists necessarily believe all property is theft.  I don&#039;t even believe thaat the coiner of that phrase (although it&#039;s usually transalted as &quot;robbery&quot; rather than &quot;theft&quot;) Pierre-Joseph Proudhon believed that.

In the essay from which it is quoted, &quot;What is property?&quot; it seems to me that a. he is talking about a particular kind of proprietorship, ie in the unreproduceable good, specifically land, in which proprietorship enables the unproductive proprietor to exploit those in need of that unreproduceable good for their production, and b. that sound, defensible rules about &quot;possession&quot; are necessary to prevent predation on productive users of those goods.

There may be a particular strand of anarcho-communism that rejects all forms of ownership rights, but it is by no means all.  Also the terms are interchangeable.  Kevin Carson, for example, styles himself a Mutualist, and that tradition draws much of its thought from the &quot;individualist anarchists&quot;, yet he himself, as I do, regard our position as within the panoply of &quot;libertarianism&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil: I don&#8217;t believe that anarchists necessarily believe all property is theft.  I don&#8217;t even believe thaat the coiner of that phrase (although it&#8217;s usually transalted as &#8220;robbery&#8221; rather than &#8220;theft&#8221;) Pierre-Joseph Proudhon believed that.</p>
<p>In the essay from which it is quoted, &#8220;What is property?&#8221; it seems to me that a. he is talking about a particular kind of proprietorship, ie in the unreproduceable good, specifically land, in which proprietorship enables the unproductive proprietor to exploit those in need of that unreproduceable good for their production, and b. that sound, defensible rules about &#8220;possession&#8221; are necessary to prevent predation on productive users of those goods.</p>
<p>There may be a particular strand of anarcho-communism that rejects all forms of ownership rights, but it is by no means all.  Also the terms are interchangeable.  Kevin Carson, for example, styles himself a Mutualist, and that tradition draws much of its thought from the &#8220;individualist anarchists&#8221;, yet he himself, as I do, regard our position as within the panoply of &#8220;libertarianism&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: An Open Letter to Libertarians and Socialists &#171; Left Outside</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-803</link>
		<dc:creator>An Open Letter to Libertarians and Socialists &#171; Left Outside</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-803</guid>
		<description>[...] get Libertarianism and I don&#8217;t want to talk about morons like Roger Helmer &#8211; Bella Gerens explains what a real Libertarian is to her. No, it is Charlotte Gore, our humble Devil, Mr [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] get Libertarianism and I don&#8217;t want to talk about morons like Roger Helmer &#8211; Bella Gerens explains what a real Libertarian is to her. No, it is Charlotte Gore, our humble Devil, Mr [...]</p>
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		<title>By: neil Craig</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-779</link>
		<dc:creator>neil Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-779</guid>
		<description>Rightist libertarians do believe that stealing your lexus is an initiation of force against your property &amp; thus it is defencive to stop them. Anarchists, believing that all property is theft think you have no right to prevent them taking your Lexus, nor that they have any right to stop you taking their bicycle. I think this is why libertarianism is practical &amp; pure anarchism isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rightist libertarians do believe that stealing your lexus is an initiation of force against your property &amp; thus it is defencive to stop them. Anarchists, believing that all property is theft think you have no right to prevent them taking your Lexus, nor that they have any right to stop you taking their bicycle. I think this is why libertarianism is practical &amp; pure anarchism isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Lord T</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-777</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-777</guid>
		<description>I class myself as a Libertarian but I am also a realist.  Classic Libertarians will never get into power in the UK while the general public do not understand what we are trying to sell them.    I&#039;ve said before now that we need a Libertarian Lite.  One that many in the LPUK will reject as against their beliefs but will resonate more with John Public.   We need to define clear and reasonable policies and a plan on how to get there in a few years that would be clearly understood and acceptable to the public and would not expect them to take massive leaps of faith.

Its all well and good having the highest standards and the best policies but if you are identified with anarchy and chaos you will never get the votes.  There will never be a better time to put forward a Libertarian cause than now.   It has to be one acceptable to the general public though not just us.  Yet at this current time I hear nothing about the LPUK and many people I have talked to about it are acceptable to the theory but are unclear on what actually will be put in place.  Better the devil you know seems to be the response the LPUK are too radical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I class myself as a Libertarian but I am also a realist.  Classic Libertarians will never get into power in the UK while the general public do not understand what we are trying to sell them.    I&#8217;ve said before now that we need a Libertarian Lite.  One that many in the LPUK will reject as against their beliefs but will resonate more with John Public.   We need to define clear and reasonable policies and a plan on how to get there in a few years that would be clearly understood and acceptable to the public and would not expect them to take massive leaps of faith.</p>
<p>Its all well and good having the highest standards and the best policies but if you are identified with anarchy and chaos you will never get the votes.  There will never be a better time to put forward a Libertarian cause than now.   It has to be one acceptable to the general public though not just us.  Yet at this current time I hear nothing about the LPUK and many people I have talked to about it are acceptable to the theory but are unclear on what actually will be put in place.  Better the devil you know seems to be the response the LPUK are too radical.</p>
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		<title>By: David Gillies</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-775</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gillies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 03:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-775</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s really rather a Hayekian point that a truly liberal society is the very antithesis of &#039;freedom to&#039;. He makes the point in &lt;i&gt;The Constitution of Liberty&lt;/i&gt; that there is nothing anti-libertarian in a certain mode of conduct attracting social opprobrium to the extent that those who engage in it will suffer significant sanction. In fact, if we take away the option of direct coercion to influence people&#039;s behaviour, it&#039;s really the only weapon left. You do not have to approve of something to permit it. It is entirely consistent with the libertarian stance to utterly condemn a lifestyle or a practise, while simultaneously refraining from doing anything about it. I think smoking, drinking to excess, taking most drugs, promiscuity, over-indulgence in fatty foods, and vegetarianism are stupid, self-destructive habits, if pursued with too little restraint. But beyond a vigorous tut-tut, would I curtail anyone&#039;s right to indulge in any of these habits? No, I would not. Hence, I am a libertarian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s really rather a Hayekian point that a truly liberal society is the very antithesis of &#8216;freedom to&#8217;. He makes the point in <i>The Constitution of Liberty</i> that there is nothing anti-libertarian in a certain mode of conduct attracting social opprobrium to the extent that those who engage in it will suffer significant sanction. In fact, if we take away the option of direct coercion to influence people&#8217;s behaviour, it&#8217;s really the only weapon left. You do not have to approve of something to permit it. It is entirely consistent with the libertarian stance to utterly condemn a lifestyle or a practise, while simultaneously refraining from doing anything about it. I think smoking, drinking to excess, taking most drugs, promiscuity, over-indulgence in fatty foods, and vegetarianism are stupid, self-destructive habits, if pursued with too little restraint. But beyond a vigorous tut-tut, would I curtail anyone&#8217;s right to indulge in any of these habits? No, I would not. Hence, I am a libertarian.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Monk</title>
		<link>http://bellagerens.com/2009/10/12/thats-right-whip-the-libertarian/comment-page-1/#comment-773</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Monk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bellagerens.com/?p=503#comment-773</guid>
		<description>Thank you bella! I really enjoyed reading this article. It sums up my own philosophy very accurately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you bella! I really enjoyed reading this article. It sums up my own philosophy very accurately.</p>
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